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e thank you for joining everyone I'm just going to give people a minute to get settled and join whilst they're grabbing a coffee or water and we'll begin in a couple of minutes e I can see the number ticking up so I'll give it another minute but also want to be respectful of people's time so we'll try to begin around 101 this wonderful so welcome everyone to this webinar for Tifa and Oliva collaboration um around mental health and pregnancy loss how to support your employees through pregnancy loss and miscarriage I'm really excited for a webinar today and I'm joined by Dr Sarah hi Sarah and hi Sophie my colleague at FIFA um and we're really pleased to have you whether you're taking a small break um hiding away for 30 minutes have this um in your ears while you're having lunch um we're excited to have this conversation which is very very important um actually very close to my heart professionally and personally so before we begin though a few housekeeping points I just want to remind everyone that this webinar is recorded um so that means of course you can ask questions throughout use the chat box use the Q&A box just remember that if you want to use the Q&A box take the anonymous box to remain anonymous and obviously not use any identifiable information um we're going to have plenty of time for Q&A at the end however if you have a burning question feel free to puppet in the chat or through the Q&A um and if you weren't able to um stay for the webinar or you've missed it we will send a recording um at the end so I will start by introducing myself I'm SEL Crawford your host for today um I run the people and operation side of fera and like many of us at fera I have a personal story with reproductive Health having had several miscarriages when trying to form my family I've also worked in the people function and been a chief people officer for almost a decade now so you can say that I've experienced two sides of the reproductive Health coin and hopefully this gives me a unique perspective on what we're going to be speaking about today if you are new to f t we're Europe's largest reproductive health benefits provider we help employees with clients like meta and Lululemon to support their employees throughout the entire reproductive Health Journey whether we're talking about menopause where we're talking about Men's Health um fertility family forming essentially we're helping employers creating more inclusive workplace environments and so that is one of the topics today how do you create an inclusive environment when it comes to supporting your employees through pregnancy laws so to help educate us on this topic I'm delighted to be joined firstly by Dr Sarah bab from Oliva so Sarah if you would like to introduce yourself and Oliva that would be great yes thank you very much so it's a great pleasure to be here um so I am the chief clinical officer at Aliva and Aliva provides very high quality mental health care and coaching to other businesses um so we don't believe that there is a oneide size fits all anything and it's um understanding what works for whom in relation to mental health care and coaching I spent my whole career working in mental health I founded companies um and co-founded companies and have helped scale um companies in the mental health space I'm also um a qualified lecturer and a researcher and my research interest is understanding why some therapists are really good and some therapists are not very good um and I hope that my experience in mental health um in the workpace but also mental health in general I've delivered about 37,000 hours of cognitive behavior therapy in my career so I hope that might be in some way useful today absolutely absolutely what a great experience you bring to the table and I'm really looking forward to our conversation um also with us today we have Sophie witz who's fertility Midwife at FIFA Sophie would you like to introduce yourself yeah thank you Seline and thank you everyone for joining us today um yeah my name is Sophie I'm one of The Midwives here at faifa on the clinical team I've been a midwife for around about eight years now I've worked in a variety of settings and cared for many families um on their Journeys um in pregnancy labor delivery and afterwards as well um I've had lots of experience with pregnancy loss not only in my clinical job but through personal friends and fam so I'm really excited to be talking about this topic today because it's a very important one um and hope that we can help open that conversation for many of you today absolutely thank you so much Sophie so before we begin with um the mey part of our conversation we absolutely love data at FIFA so we can't help but start with a poll so I will be launching a poll now for everyone who's here um and we have one question for you today which is does your workplace have employees support for pregnancy loss in place and I would be really grateful if you said yes no or maybe you didn't know um and chose the option there I'll give you a few seconds to to do that can you see the poll s yours and Sarah yeah okay wonderful so um we have 70% of people have voted interesting so does your workplace have employee support for pregnancy loss in place I'm just going to give it a couple more seconds um for a last chance to vote actually it looks like we have more than 45% of people who do have a pregnancy loss support in place which actually is amazing um I think it's a really great number um 29% don't said no and 27% said they didn't know and hopefully you've come to the right place and we can talk about pregnancy law support and policies um in more detail a little bit later in our conversation but thank you for participating so I'm just going to share the result perfect so to kick us off obviously sadly we know and as I said from personal experience as well that not every pregnancy and with a baby um in fact one in four pregnancies and in miscarriage um and even one in 100 women have recurrent miscarriage so it's really important to understand you know the different cases or the different context and situation that might happen when it comes to pregnancy loss especially in the workplace taking myself as an example if you don't mind a couple of my miscarriages one was at 14 weeks uh and one was at seven weeks so extremely different and extremely different types so what I'm trying to say is pregnancy losss can look in very very different Sophie coming to you first can you explain for us a little bit the different stages of miscarriage um so so we understand a little bit better from a medical perspective yeah of course I think it is important to remember that pregnancy loss um can be different for everybody but it also can happen at any stage of the pregnancy I think sometimes the thought of miscarriage is it's early it's maybe in the first few weeks it's um kind of when people have just maybe found out that they're pregnant but this is this is not the case and pregnancy loss can happen at any stage in the pregnancy which is really sad but it needs to be understood because that impacts people's experience and how they maybe deal with it but also what has to happen during that pregnancy loss not just them emotionally but physically as well so um I'll start by um explaining some of the different types so miscarriage that can even be broken down into different types of miscarriage so you've got early miscarriage which um can be any time within the first trimester but if you think about the first trimester that's three months so for the people that are going through that the parents that are going through that that's not early they'll have known for quite a while that they're pregnant so even that terminology can be difficult sometimes and then you have late miscarriage and the terminology miscarriage can be used up until 23 to 24 weeks pregnancy so that's over halfway in the pregnancy and it can be very traumatic whenever a miscarriage happens so I think it's about understanding that it's not always just early kind of in the early stages of the pregnancy that miscarriage can happen up until 24 weeks um and it can be also hard hearing the terminology miscarriage when you experience it later into the second trimester um because it's a baby that you've bonded with you've had scans you've had appointments you've made plans so having a terminology like miscarriage can be difficult um and you may find that some hospitals maybe don't use that terminology when speaking to patients to respect those feelings around that um there's also missed miscarriage so this is where a patient may not have any um experienc any symptoms of miscarriage so no pain no bleeding but they maybe go to an appointment or a scan and there is no heartbeat um when they are at that appointment and again that can be really traumatizing for many reasons because their body hasn't shown any signs that this has happened so it's it can be quite a shock hearing that news um so that's just kind of a few examp examples of um uh miscarriages you also have chemical pregnancies there's a molar pregnancy again both can be very traumatic and upsetting and then there's also ectopic pregnancies which can happen where the um pregnancy starts to develop in the fallopian tube and not only is this an emotionally um um impactful pregnancy but it's also a physic physically impactful because it can be very dangerous if it grows when there's risk to the fallopian tube rupturing there's the physical side of things a patient may need um surgery in order to prevent the rupture or to repair a rupture and that can take its own physical recovery as well so sometimes there may be a delay in the emotional um impact of that pregnancy loss due to the physical recovery that is required and then there is still birth so still birth is when a baby passes away um after 24 weeks pregnancy um and again still very traumatic and can happen at any time in pregnancy but it's still a pregnancy loss and it's one that people maybe don't talk about a lot because it is um very upsetting and um very scary to think about as well people don't want to talk about these things but it's important that um there is education that these things can happen so if you do then kind of meet anyone or you work with anyone that has experienced it you can be understanding of what may um they may have been through um so I think it's important to understand that pregnancy loss can really happen at any time and can impact people very differently depending on what they've had to go through yeah absolutely thank you so much for taking us through all of that I had a molar pregnancy actually and I had never heard the term before before I had it right so it can be incredibly isolating um you know thinking that you're the only one and I think the more we talk about these topics the more we can help people um going through these challenges so this brings us um to the second point and I mean you make a very interesting point around obvious early mid late however I feel as someone who's trying to form a family you know it doesn't matter if you think you've been pregnant for one day or or you know 24 weeks you know something happens to you from an emotional perspective and mental health um perspective so turning to you Sarah I would love to hear more um from you in terms of what do you think is the short-term and long-term impact for someone going through pregnancy loss from from your experience and obviously having worked with so many people [Music] so sadly there isn't a one- siiz fits all answer to that question we're all different aren't we and uh you know and and each um pregnancy loss will be different so if you're unfortunate to experience more than one your experience might be very different um so the people are going to expain experience a range of possible symptoms so they understandably grief and loss and tearfulness and we know with grief and loss that every grief is different um and we know that tearfulness can creep up on you you might think you're fine and then something out of the blue and you might not even know what it is can suddenly hit you and you're in floods of tears and that can be terribly embarrassing when you want to hold it all together you know this is kind of stiff up a Lipa isn't make a fuss and all of a sudden you're in floods of tears and if that happens at work whether you're in an office or you're working remotely that's really embarrassing um I know you haven't answered this question but I'm kind of almost tempted to get into so what could what might we do about that but maybe that comes a little later yeah but I think you know we can we can start thinking about what we can do especially first from a human perspective right before we go into the workplace setting and and how can workplaces be better more supportive um for individuals that are going through loss but yes I would love to hear um yes your take on on what can we do and as you say it is extremely different from one person to another but also from one loss to another so you know um what can we do so I think if you know I think we all understand that it would be perfectly normal to get tearful um you know under all sorts of different times and unexpected times and I think um it's having a little bit of a plan um so knowing you know if if you're feeling tearful what might you do and so you know that you're your manager or your colleagues might know so you can you can leave um you know there is a plan you might have somewhere that you might go um and so it's just knowing that it's okay and that I can leave and if that were to happen because I think the terrifying thing this sort of debilitating thing is oh my goodness me I can't do this I can't leave and that just that just almost creates a problem with spikes on so you're now anxious that you're going to get tearful so you've got two problem s now so having a just a simple thing like having a discussion let's have a think about if this were to happen what would you do let's get something in place so it's kind of the human side of it so we've got feeling low feeling tearful and the feelings of grief and loss um people might um you know also start to feel anxious this is a potentially a stressful thing that happens to happens to us um and and I say us because it's it's not necessarily just the woman it could be the partner too who might feel anxious you might feel guilty you might have lots and lots of intrusive thoughts about oh I had a glass of wine or I shouldn't have done this or I went to that party or you all sorts of different things or is it something that I have done and men and women might experience this so know that we're a bit more prone to to worry and when we experience anything in life that is stressful it has an impact on how we feel emotionally and physically so we might uh that might affect what we do and what we don't do so we might avoid things we might not do things that we normally find pleasurable so go to the gym see our friends we might become withdrawn um so these are normal common kneejerk reactions we might have almost what we would call an in congruous Emotion so something that you would you would necessarily associate so we might get angry and be bad-tempered and grumpy and impatient and again we then feel bad and guilty um so I think what you should be hearing here is that there isn't one right emotion you might experience a range of emotions and it might be a bit of a yo-yo ride it might be a roller coaster ride where your emotions are going up and down because of course and you know there's the hormonal effects here there not just a feeling of loss but a woman's body is going through a range of you know emotional changes hormonal changes um and that's going to impact on our emotions thank you so much I love sorry no no that's all right no I I mean I'm listening intently and you know I really wish that I had heard this you know when I was going through through this personally but um what I love is about the plan right because there's such a sense of loss of control when someone is going through that and you know with the guilt and the embarrassment or you know all the kaleidoscopic most of the time you know negative emotions that come with it so having the sense of control with having a plan I think is really important what's your view in terms of also giving yourself the right to change your mind right because obviously it takes a while to start to identify how you're actually feeling you might feel something one week you might feel something different the other week and so just giving yourself permission to say okay this is what I said I needed initially but actually what I need now is this yeah that's a collaborative process isn't it so it's it's having permission to say actually I think I need this now um and I think the most important question that we can ask anybody as As Leaders or managers or people professionals is how can I help and then revisit it is that working how is that working for you do we need to adapt or change your plan and also to articulate it's okay to change your mind if we get this wrong it doesn't matter you know we can adapt and change it um because knowing you know that your feelings might change and your needs might change so it's opening the um it's giving people permission isn't it and saying that so we can say that as people um but actually it makes it a whole lot easier um as leaders and people professionals to say revisit it ask the question again and just say it's okay to change your mind if this isn't working you know just say We'll change it and make sure that you go back and ask how is it working you know do we need to change anything going absolutely so Sophie obviously you speak to a lot of people um and patients at fera who might be going um through this kind of loss and I was just wanting to ask if you know what we're saying resonates with the call that you have with patients um and you know what they say that they need um when they are on these calls with you yeah absolutely not just kind of in the course that I'm having but the couples and the um parents that I've cared for kind of um in person in hospitals I think the thing that um sticks with me is that everyone is different and everybody handles things differently and wants to deal with things differently um and particularly when I'm speaking with people on our Discovery call is that some people want distraction they want to be getting straight stuck into work they want to be busy they want to not have that head space because for them that's how they cope that's how they grieve whereas other people want to just shut everything away they want to be on their own they want to isolate themselves to really process those thoughts and it's about having the respect that people will handle things differently but again there will be many people that don't know how they want to handle this because it's a lot of confusion there's so many emotions like you were saying about there's guilt there's sadness there's anger so they can't even then even think what they want to do with returning to work being at work do they want to be here they don't know they're not sure what the right thing is are they worried about if someone's going to bring it up and they that's going to then kind of derail their day or are they worried that everyone's going to ignore it everybody is so different and I think that's why it's so important to have that conversation and allow that space for that person to have that conversation with their manager with their HR um representative because they may not know and it's not until maybe they start coming back to work or returning to work that they think this isn't working but I don't know what to do because we have this plan in place or we've agreed this but I think it's about having that open and safe space and people may not want to apprach the subject themselves because it's difficult to bring up so as Sarah said having that checkin saying is this still working is there anything else that can change how are you feeling at the moment because there is such a varied um response from everybody it's like with any form of grief everybody deals with it in a different way and it's very personal and it can change the timeline can change um and day-to-day can change it just depends on kind of how they wake up that day sometimes it can they can wake up with reminders of what's happened sometimes their brain wakes up and it's at the back of their head so I think it's just about being respectful of the differences that people may go through absolutely so this brings us really to you know the workplace environment and creating a supportive culture and that safe space because as you said both of you every journey is different um even on sometimes on a daily basis on a personal basis and so the first thing that you can do is creating a safe SP and supporting workplace environment so from your perspective Dr Sarah what are some of the key things um that need to happen for an employee to feel that they are in a safe space uh in a workplace setting and that they can you know um I guess show up in in whatever state that they are that's a huge question isn't it because it doesn't just relate to this topic um you know it relates to absolutely anything that can happen to people so as people stuff happens um and you know we're at work a big chunk um of the time aren't we so we're going to bring that stuff to work so what you're really asking is how do we create a psychologically safe workplace now I think starts at the top and I think it starts with the senior leadership team um and we're all human beings and I think just being humble so sharing our own experiences so as a senior leader I think it's important to tell people a little bit about me they don't need to know it all um but for instance I have five children I have a disabled child um and you know right now it's it's tough and it's difficult and I and I talk about it um and I talk about it not because I'm looking for anything um at all I talk about it because I'm modeling um our CEO um Javy he talks about you know his experience um of of having mental health difficulties in the past and and um San our co-founder they talk about it we talk about this stuff on LinkedIn all of the time because if it's okay for us to talk about it and it's not just talk about it it's saying hey guys actually I need to take the afternoon off this today because all hell's Broken Out In My Life um and actually I'm I'm no good to man or beast this afternoon and I go um because it's all very well saying you know talk about it you can do what you like but if the senior leadership team don't do this stuff other people copy them um so if if you work all hours you know if you don't take time off with you're sick if you don't admit that you know you're a human being and you've got problems then that just ripples down through the company um and it just means that if I share and I'm modeling um and I'm also asking questions so I'm a very nosy person at work um so I'm always looking and just seeing how people are and if I notice that somebody is just not themselves I'll I'll find a way of having a gentle conversation um so all of this is about modeling that it's okay to ask it's okay to suffer um and we're all human beings all together and I think that will Ripple down in within the company and people will see oh it isn't just a policy where you say this is a psychologically safe environment you can do this you can do that but actually people are doing it and and the relief that comes from knowing that if something goes wrong wrong in my life that it's okay you know people will understand I need to do what I need to do and the great thing about that in my experience is that when you have that kind of culture people are so grateful and they give back so when they're ready and they go back to work you know it it reaps its rewards because it's like this is an amazing place to work and people have understood and given their space so that's a very quick and simple answer but I think it's the biggest thing that I would say is that it starts with the senior leadership team absolutely and I completely agree with you I think there's no point having the best policies in the world if they are not modeled or mirrored by people who you know we look up to and are setting the tone for the for the culture then you might as well you know not have anything so um so I mean that is a really important point I think a lot of the times as well we talk about educating managers so you know obviously we spend a lot of time at works you know when we look at this stat not just around pregnancy loss but also infertility a lot of the times employees say that they're really suffering because of the direct relationship with the manager or that the manager doesn't understand them um so I wanted to turn to you a little bit Sophie and just in terms of Education I think obviously manager is really important I also personally think that it's important to educate everyone in the company because not everyone will go to their manager they might pick someone else someone that they feel close to or might be someone in HR you know what are some good ways to be able to educate or at least open the conversation around pregnancy loss I think just by simply actually having a conversation about it I think it's not a conversation that's had so just speaking about it as a team and being understanding that it's a topic that a lot of people keep very close and private to them so you may not actually even know that someone's may be trying to conceive until they've had a pregnancy loss and there is sometimes a lot of fear about um talking about trying to get pregnant or trying um starting a family in the workplace about fear of maybe job security or worried that it may impact um kind of promotion things like that so it is something people even outside of the workplace keep very close to them and very private so I think just by having generalized conversations about pregnancy loss with whole teams not just because because you know someone is pregnant in the team and it might happen to them or that is looking to start a family just having those conversations and understanding like I mentioned at the beginning about this could be um happen at any stage in pregnancy there could be different varying degrees of loss as well and different experiences because I think it may help with that education also including on things what maybe is inappropriate to say or may what's not appropriate to say and I think that is one of the main key things um anything that anybody ever says in relation to pregnancy loss is always meant with good thoughts and positivity and not meant with any harm or malice however maybe they don't think how it is receiving some of the comments um so for example people that I've spoken to um have been told oh oh it was early so that's fine and the person saying that isn't saying that with any ill intent or any malice but that really hurt because I often say to people that are going through pregnancy loss that you you plan that pregnancy and you think about that pregnancy before you've even taken a test so it feels like a loss from from the first day and it doesn't matter how early that is you're you're planning a life with that baby whether you're it's day one or kind of 20 weeks it so saying it's early does it doesn't justify the loss and it can be really hard to hear but I think when people are speaking about loss and grief they want to give some positivity to try and help these people but actually some comments like that can be really hurtful and harmful and maybe will stop people talking so I think not just educating on kind of what pregnancy loss can look like it's about actually sometimes saying not a lot is really helpful and just saying I'm very sorry but and you don't need to find positivity because there is no positivity within pregnancy loss so saying it was early or or another common one and I I don't like to bring it up is if someone's already got children is oh well at least you've got one already and that it doesn't that doesn't matter this pregnancy loss is still so traumatizing and so emotional and so wanted that pregnancy was so wanted that it doesn't matter and comments like that may be seemen to be positive but actually could be really harmful so just communication around that and educating around that is really important yeah that that's so true um and we actually had a question in the Q&A which I think you just answered and it's would you classify a Fai Embryo transfer as a pregnancy loss right and so yes any anything really because it is a loss and it's something that you've been planning something you you were attached to probably one of the worst thing I heard which also was meant in a very positive voice like it was meant to be and it it's like so hard like how how is how can it be meant to be like um it's it's quite quite difficult hear all these things but again I think as you're saying it's really difficult to know what to say as as well um and of course um there are great resources at hand to help educate managers like for example um you know the miscarriage assoc Association um or other website that actually do say simply say I'm sorry um however it can become quite tricky because I think pregnancy loss is a very special kind of grief just for individuals um and just turning to you Sarah you you're saying goodbye you're grieving most of the times someone you've never met or you know you've not seen so it's quite a special kind of grief so how how can managers or people um you know help in being empathetic and and and supporting individuals who are going through through that time I think this relates a lot to what Sophie is saying as human beings you most of us are really caring warm and empathic and we want to do good stuff and that and we we want to to say something nice as you were saying Sophie and and actually it can be better to say nothing at all um I think silence and a Gest gesture if you know somebody well enough to put your arm on their shoulder you know sometimes we it's okay to to hug people if we know them well enough you know that can be you know that can you know it can say more than words itself um just a look a smile eye contact Time tissues um you know I'm here how can I help my door is always open um these are just very very simple human gestures and it you I think as I think people know that there's nothing you can do um that's going to take away this feeling and and actually that's not what they're looking for you they know that there's there is nothing absolutely that's going to make them feel better but just to know that you are empathic you are understanding you and you you know you are there and you can you can portray that in very very simple ways absolutely that's actually had goosebumps when you were saying do things because it really brought me back um to a few years ago but absolutely you you're not looking for a solution because there is no solution you just want to feel like you're in a safe space you're being heard and someone's here for and you're not alone I I think is what what you're looking for um and I think it sounds like very simple and basic but it's so important for the foundational support of anyone going going through these Journeys sometimes who may not actually tell you you know the whole story or or everything around it it might not be their first miscarriage um you know it there's always more than meets the ey so you know be gentle be present I think it's such great advice so this is obviously around the psychological safety in companies how we can be there to support whether we're a manager um or you know a peer a friend leadership coming from the top a longer term way to support is also through having a policy so obviously a policy is not the be all and and all but it is good to have a policy in place and um you know I have a question in the Q&A what does Advanced support from organization look like around pregnancy loss so I think this will be a good um a good chapter to talk about this and it's also in a way an a not expensive way and the way that I say that is a lot of the times Chief people officers they come to fortif we speak to them they're like we don't have budget you know we don't have budget to support these policies and actually you don't need much to start a policy you want it to be based around understanding you want it to be really clear as to what you're giving what you're offering and around the practicalities as well so talking a little bit about a pregnancy loss policy one of the things we recommend usually is to keep it separate from the fertility policy right because there are very different undertones in terms of you know I guess the positivity of wanting to form a family and then obviously some of the hardships that can come from from trying to do that so Sophie do you agree with that um what's your view on keeping them separate yeah because I do think it is separate because people that are kind of trying to conceive and potentially facing fertility problems it is very different and I think it needs to be handled differently and um kind of respectfully it should be separate as well for the people that are facing kind of either sets of um potential difficulties so I think it's really important that it is kept separate um there will be similarities um because there will be similar support that is needed but it may be that different plans that are in place maybe for pregnancy loss may be different for um kind of a fertility pathway so I definitely see that there is um lots of benefits to having them separate absolutely and Sarah coming to you obviously we've already established that every person is different and every experience is different um and so we'll experience things differently from an emotional and mental health perspective what you think is a good amount of time to at least have in a policy or what you feel is um acceptable for people to start with and I know there's no right answer for this actually but I'm just hoping from your experience just to shed some light um around needing flexibility basically um in a policy I think if I could I could have total freedom in writing a policy um and I do appreciate that this kind of butts up against budget um but I think the first thing in that in that policy needs to be a collaborative conversation around need so rather saying you will get one week off or you will get two weeks off or you can do this or you can do that there is not a one-size fits all um and I think it has to start with a collaborative conversation around what somebody might need now somebody might want to be at work but might need to work reduced hours they might want to you know do some sort of phased return to work um and that and that phase return might take many shapes and sizes it might be one day off one day on shorter days so I think if I could write anything it would be a collaborative discussion around need and then with regular reviews um and you know and and regular will be defi defined in that collaborative discussion When shall we review it so we've agreed that we're going to do X When shall we review it let's just test it try on for size and see whether this is working for you most people want to be at work most people want to return to work people do not want to be feeling the way that they are feeling um and so this policy is to support them whilst they're struggling and enable them to come to get back into the workplace and do the job that they most normally love and want to be there um and there will be a tiny proportion of people that you know that you know that that perhaps don't that's a different problem um so I I think that would be my starting point I don't think I would want to put this is your statutory benefit we give you three weeks we will give you one week I think we have to give flexibility because I think when you're flexible people will bend and sway with you they they know that you know that you know you need them to go back to work um but yeah and I think putting a defined period of time creates its own problems yeah yeah I understand that it can be tricky if you want to think about paid time right so I think some people choose to say okay we're going to give a couple of weeks around that however we will review regularly on a case-by casee basis any extra time that you need of and I think it's really important in the policy to also have the practicalities right it's like how do I book this time of in our system who do I have to to let know it sounds like really small decision but when you're going through such a vulnerable state it's actually really intense having to think about these things so making sure that these things are actually in your policy and somebody asked a really good question in the Q&A about keeping these policies separate it's really around sign posting because you don't want to be having to search um you know for where things are so either making sure that this is included in your handbook or on your systems in a very very easy accessible or you know to a person sometimes people don't want to talk to a person but say at least okay this HR representative um will be the person that you know will help you um if you need to find any any more information around that so I think that is definitely um you know important and obviously I think the plan of action that you mentioned initially is is is so great uh because you can really tailor that to each individual and what they need at the time and then each company will have different resources right so some companies might give um access to counseling uh some companies might give other things what have you seen in your experience um Sarah that you know has been quite impactful so this is this is topic right up my street isn't it um because I in every single company that I've worked in I have set up um a mental health service for the staff um so I've worked in mental health for a long time and and so therefore the companies I'm working in are mental health companies but but didn't have um you know a decent resource for the staff um so I think making sure there is a very high quality easy access um service for employees um with a range of offerings different things work for different people so if you I kind of see it as a sliding scale of Continuum so on one end you've got nothing you're on your own guys is and something called the NHS off you go um and then you might have companies that are sort of doing a tick boox mental health um sort of policy and process and they might have mental health first aers or something along those lines and you know that's it job done guys we've done mental health um or you might have a company that has access to a phone um EAP employment assistance program so that people can phone up and talk um all the way up right to the very you know the top end of the Continuum where you've got access to a variety of things um whether that might be a one-off session I want to talk to somebody this afternoon now to get this off my chest um all the way through to um somebody that has post-traumatic stress disorder after a a complicated um um pregnancy loss um because we know that some people will experience PTSD and will be really really poorly and need very very Specialist Care again I I sound like a scratch record no one size fits all um so you know what some of those things will suit some people the telephone service will suit some people but it won't suit everyone the mental First Data will suit some people but won't suit everyone you need something that has the breadth and depth and easy access um confidential completely a away from um the HR team where people can feel that they they know that they're going to get very very good high quality care that works for them um and it's really easy to use absolutely that's um you know absolutely on point so I have nothing to add to that was there anything Sophie that you would add um in terms of what a pregnancy loss policy should include um to make sure that it's helping employees in the right way um no I don't think so I think the only thing maybe to include is um I know we have touched on this but it also including Partners oh yes so it not just being kind of the pregnant person it's also then the partner in that relationship as well and acknowledging that because I think that is so important and that will be that will look different um it may be that they need to be on standby that if their partner is at home and needs them they need to be able to leave to take a call or go to them work from home to be able to be that support but it also means that they may need that emotional support that mental health support as well to process what they're going through because they may process it very differently to how their partner does um so I think that would be the only thing that I would mention is that within a pregnancy loss that includes the both parents not just the kind of the one that was sometimes more than two as well so exactly yeah exactly so you know if you want to take into account modern representation of family forming it really has to represent everyone who's going through that loss and that grief and it's not just the person who you know was carrying although you know obviously that's a very important person yeah absolutely no thank you that's such an important Point um so um there were a few questions in the chat actually around the policy would this be different than sick leave um I mean usually we at FIFA recommend to keep it separate from sick leave um and it's really either qualified as other absence or or sometimes in a more confident itial way that people want to portray it I don't know Sarah if you had any thoughts on that particular yeah it's it's a it's a tricky one isn't it um I quite like your idea um other other absence I I think one of the I think the thing that um that stands out is that when you're off work you know people are going to say what what's what's wrong with that person why why are they off um and again um I think this is about having a conversation is what do you want people to know yeah what would you like people to know because some people will get an awful lot of comfort from saying just tell people yes I just want everybody to know and other people will say I just don't want anybody to know at all want to be really private so in in which case calling it sick leave um is Suits them just fine right I don't I think within that policy we don't necessarily have to call call it anything it's let talk about exactly that absolutely absolutely I mean it's so true what you say when I had my first miscarriage at 14 weeks I did not want to tell anybody um and I think you know it was the first shock and then with the other ones I felt a bit more comfortable I was more educated and I and actually wanted to share my story to help combat the loneliness and so I was actually fine with with sharing that so it's absolutely true even again within one individual you just don't know um what would be best um this is a good question actually um I've seen some bereavement policies include pregnancy loss indicating the set number of days would you recommend pregnancy loss is Standalone outside of the company bereavement policy Sarah what do you think um I think somebody um one of the um audience said something around let's make this really easy to find um so if you're going to look for the policy as an employee um you don't want to be searching could it be this one could it be that one you want it to say you know it needs to say what it is on the tin doesn't it so you can go straight to it so I I like that that's not my idea that's somebody else's idea but I like it absolutely I like it as well I think it's it's hugely important so I didn't realize we were so close to time already it's been such an engaging conversation um I guess what we're saying is that people people are going to go through what they're going to go through whether you have something in place or not right it's an incredibly um sad and intense time in your life spent on you know Googling finding information so whether you have a workplace support that is um you know the most advanced like working with company like Oliva or fera or whether really you're just trying to create a psychological safety um and a pregnancy loss policy it's a really good place to start to open up the conversation and don't worry to get it wrong you know before you get right right but start somewhere open up the conversation and just know that you need to include flexibility to make sure that you're accounting for everyone's experience in it although I do say be careful between being flexible and vague so you know that's probably a topic for for another um another webinar we have quite a few questions so I did want to to go to the Q&A first of all I want to thank people for sharing uh their stories you know we've had people in the chat people in the Q&A as well I I know how hard it is to to to you know to share so I do really appreciate um a question around baby showers in the office right so obviously we've said that it can be incredibly triggering and you just you're not sure what's going to trigger you I mean a baby shower is definitely going to be on that list um something that we've recommended is having um almost like a buddy or or someone who alerts someone that a baby shower is going to happen if the person wants to work from home that day or you know anything like that but um Sophie what you think about you know baby showers and and helping someone who's privately going through pregnancy loss I think even if you like maybe aren't aware that someone's going through something or even trying to conceive um trying to start a family I think it's important to maybe put if there is any information going out about it to say if anybody doesn't feel comfortable attending or does not wish to attend for personal reasons that's absolutely fine again and not having that pressure that everybody has to attend but even just maybe saying that may spark others to think oh I wouldn't even think that someone may not want to attend it so it may then prompt them to think or maybe I shouldn't ask everybody that question or ask things around trying to get pregnant trying to start a family um and so I think just giving that safe kind of safe word at the bottom of any say email invite alert just to say this is open to all if you for personal reasons do not wish to attend you don't need to so not to say and speak to me because if they're keeping it secret they don't need to tell anyone it's about saying we will understand if not everybody turns out it's understand it's not passing that's good and I think Sarah you mentioned mental health first aiders we also have had people who have fertility officers or just you know designated people around the company who are always thinking of you know someone else's perspective are these good people to help you know I guess Implement um I guess a safe environment and and making sure that we're protecting people as much as possible yeah I'm pausing there um because we put a lot of weight and responsibility onto these people that have gone off and done training uh and they go off and do the training you know because they want to generally um but I you know I kind of feel that there's a big onus of responsibility on them sometimes um um I in terms of of course it's lovely to have somebody that you feel that you could go and talk to and that's an option and sometimes you don't even have to have the title because I'm sure we've all worked with people where you think you know that person is a gem to talk to and you know and and they make themselves known that they you know that they're there to support um but I I think I actually prefer Sophie's um yes sorry maybe I didn't say it in the right way it wouldn't be to go to talk to it's just just someone who you know maybe will remind people to include in a baby shower invite oh don't forget to put that line in or don't forget this or or that that people might not think at all when sending out their happy news or an invitation so um less than like the onetoone conversational support however this brings me to the last question in our Q&A which is really powerful and I really want to thank this person for sharing um their experience um so someone who experienced a still birth at 34 weeks and then returned to work after 3 months leave um everyone knew about the loss obviously for obvious reasons and despite coping well eight months on that person is still struggling and actually is not really getting any check-ins from colleague um and so a very important question how can we convince people to start conversations and continue having those conversations um you know when either one they're not sure what to say or two significant amount of time has passed going to you Sarah first yeah I I think this is a thing that happens to us as human beings with grief um is that we kind of there's this period you know after the event um where you know we provide support um and then there's almost this in you know if you are the person that is grieving if you're the person that's had the pregnancy loss is almost like this Unwritten rule I have to be better by this time and life doesn't work like that you can't help when you feel better it you know it's a process that you're going through and all sorts of things might happen and you will have that roller coaster ride but often the people around that person sort of think oh can't ask about it now because it was six months ago and I don't want to upset them um and so the more time that goes by nobody says it and everybody sort of you know walking away and think oh thank goodness I don't have to talk I don't have to deal with that anymore I don't have to have that that difficult conversation and I think that's where we get ourselves into difficulties so I think it's it's it is very much about ensuring that there is somebody who has that responsibility to check in with that person and to keep that conversation going um and to be a little bit nosy you know just you you you can tell use your human instincts how is that person are they behaving in the way that they might normally behave go and ask and keep asking it is a collaborative thing you know that we can ourselves say I'm still suffering but that can be incredibly hard to do um for all sorts of reasons um so this comes down to have you know the the manager the the HR team you know somebody that has a a relationship a working relationship with that person keeping that conversation going um and also thinking about signposting so even if you don't have um a mental health service um in within your company or somewhere where you can go you can say have you who have you spoken to have you talked to your GP you know go and talk to somebody about this yeah because there is so much that can be done and that person's feelings are absolutely bang on normal but the longer things go on you you end up having a problem that has spikes on because you feel bad and you beat we beat ourselves up should be better by now yes absolutely thank you for that um if we have an employe struggling with pregnancy loss can we refer them to fera we are a ferfa client absolutely you will have someone like Sophie speaking to them so please refer them in fact um I'm going to put um this in the chat if you want to get in touch with FIFA for whatever or Oliva um for mental health and well-being please don't be shy um so before we close Sophie any final thoughts on you know I think we've covered a lot around pregnancy laws I know you have got you have so much experience as well speaking to couples patients and everyone any final thoughts before we wrap up um I think one thing it's kind of following on from how Sarah answered that last question um it's a lot of couples that have gone through kind of prancy loss want to acknowledge the baby so I think a lot of hospitals will do things like um memory making um for couples that go through pregnany loss again at various stages of that and so they may and they may have conversations about talking about them as your baby not pretending like then they never happened and I think sometimes that can be really a struggle is that life goes on and that baby didn't exist so I think just and again you will be able to gauge from who wants to be able to acknowledge that they had their baby and kind of including them in their life still even though they're not currently here um so I think if they if you have someone that wants to speak about their baby let them speak about them and let them talk about them because it was still their daughter their son they still they probably will have named them and they they were someone they loved and bonded with so respecting that and kind of acknowledging that they were a baby do you know what I mean their baby is really yeah in fact since February 2024 you can also have a miscarriage certificate um if it's a l before 24 weeks and I think a lot of people find it very comforting to have that to acknowledge or you know what they've gone through as a family so that is also um something that that exists so thank you so much um for joining Dr Sarah Bop and Sophie witz I really enjoyed our conversation I hope you found it um insightful with some actionable points and yeah looking forward to the next one so thank you so much bye